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RSM's talkBIG Podcast
Unpacking Australia’s proposed electric vehicle road user charge
As revenue from the fuel excise continues to drop, Australia’s proposed solution is to make up the difference with a new tax for electric vehicle drivers. In this episode of talkBIG, host Andrew Sykes is joined by RSM Australia’s National Head of Tax Sam Mohammad and RSM Australia’s Sustainability Lead Nicole Mohan to explore the impacts of this controversial policy.
Together, they debate the fairness of a road user charge that only applies to electric vehicles, how this might impact Australia’s sustainability goals and whether there are other ways to transition away from a fuel excise.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
- The rationale behind Australia's proposed road user charge for electric vehicles and its potential to replace declining fuel excise revenue.
- The fairness and equity considerations of the road user charge, including its impact on different income groups and regions.
- How the road user charge aligns with Australia's 2035 emissions reduction target and the importance of its careful design.
- The challenges of implementing a road user charge, including vehicle usage tracking and privacy concerns.
Tune in to understand how this policy could impact both individual and corporate road users and how it might shape the future of transportation in Australia.
Experts in this episode:
Sam Mohammad, National Head of Tax, RSM Australia
Nicole Mohan, National Sustainability Lead, RSM Australia
Andrew Sykes, Canberra Managing Partner, RSM Australia
Thanks for listening! Visit the RSM Australia website to ask the hosts a question.
<font color=#636664FF>Is a road user charge fairer than a fuel tax?</font><font color=#636664FF>And could this inadvertently discourage sustainable practices </font><font color=#636664FF>by individuals and businesses?</font><font color=#636664FF>Back in August, Federal Treasurer Jim Chalmers held an Economic Forum roundtable where</font><font color=#636664FF>among other things, they discussed a new road tax to raise revenue from those not paying</font><font color=#636664FF>fuel excise, EVs or electric vehicles.</font><font color=#636664FF>While it's clear the federal government intends to move forward with the new tax, we're</font><font color=#636664FF>missing a lot of details on who it will apply to, whether it will be weighted and how it</font><font color=#636664FF>will be paid.</font><font color=#636664FF>Hello, I'm Andrew Sykes.</font><font color=#636664FF>I've been a business accountant for over 25 years.</font><font color=#636664FF>I talk about business, money and the economy to help you get ahead.</font><font color=#636664FF>Welcome to talkBIG.</font><font color=#636664FF>Today, we're going to talk about why the government wants a road user charge to tax EVs,</font><font color=#636664FF>how it might be implemented and whether this is the best way forward for Australia.</font><font color=#636664FF>When we consider the government's announcement of a new 2035 emissions reduction target of</font><font color=#636664FF>62% to 70% below 2005 levels, is this charge another step towards achieving that goal or</font><font color=#636664FF>will it actually discourage road users from adopting more sustainable practice?</font><font color=#636664FF>Joining me from Brisbane, I have RSM Australia's National Head of Tax Sam Mohammad and RSM</font><font color=#636664FF>Australia's National Sustainability Lead Nicole Mohan.</font><font color=#636664FF>Welcome both Sam and Nicole, how are you today?</font><font color=#636664FF>Lovely to be here.</font><font color=#636664FF>Thanks, Andrew.</font><font color=#636664FF>Good thanks as well.</font><font color=#636664FF>Joining from sunny warm Brisbane.</font><font color=#636664FF>So a little bit about Sam.</font><font color=#636664FF>Sam has close to 20 years’ experience advising on indirect taxes like GST and the fuel</font><font color=#636664FF>tax levy.</font><font color=#636664FF>He's a prior member of the ATO's fuel tax liaison group and a regular presenter at the Tax</font><font color=#636664FF>Institute and other seminars and conferences.</font><font color=#636664FF>Sam's a current member of the Tax Institute of Queensland's state</font><font color=#636664FF>taxes subcommittee, so well qualified to talk to us today.</font><font color=#636664FF>And from the sustainability angle, Nicole has over 15 years of experience working for RSM</font><font color=#636664FF>in both Australia and Los Angeles.</font><font color=#636664FF>As RSM's National Sustainability Lead, she plays a key role in driving RSM sustainability</font><font color=#636664FF>goals and is a registered greenhouse and energy auditor.</font><font color=#636664FF>Nicole's managed numerous engagements for the Clean Energy Regulator under the National</font><font color=#636664FF>Greenhouse and Energy Reporting Safeguards Mechanism, Renewable Energy Targets and</font><font color=#636664FF>Emission Reduction Fund.</font><font color=#636664FF>So that's quite a mouthful there, Nicole.</font><font color=#636664FF>They're big jobs too.</font><font color=#636664FF>Yes, I was surprised they didn't use the acronyms.</font><font color=#636664FF>Too many acronyms.</font><font color=#636664FF>Always a lot in ESG.</font><font color=#636664FF>So Nicole, first question to you.</font><font color=#636664FF>Why does the government want to introduce an electric vehicle road user charge in</font><font color=#636664FF>Australia?</font><font color=#636664FF>Okay, so I guess this is really about equity.</font><font color=#636664FF>So, it's ensuring that all road users contribute to road maintenance, as currently users of</font><font color=#636664FF>EVs avoid that fuel excise.</font><font color=#636664FF>We've seen that as vehicles become either more fuel efficient or don't need fuel at</font><font color=#636664FF>all, as in the case of EVs, the revenue collected from the fuel tax is dropping.</font><font color=#636664FF>There are some interesting facts in regards to the fuel excise.</font><font color=#636664FF>Fuel excise represents about 38% of all road-related revenue.</font><font color=#636664FF>Registration is about 30% and stamp duty 14%, while tolls and council rates make up the</font><font color=#636664FF>difference.</font><font color=#636664FF>Some other interesting facts, total road-related revenue from all levels of government</font><font color=#636664FF>in 2023 was $31 bn</font><font color=#636664FF>and total road expenditures from all levels of government in 2023 was $38.6 bn.</font><font color=#636664FF>This leaves about $7.7 bn in roads expenditure to come out of other taxes.</font><font color=#636664FF>There are details still missing on how this charge will be structured and who</font><font color=#636664FF>it will apply to and how it will be collected, which I guess we'll talk through</font><font color=#636664FF>it for the rest of the session.</font><font color=#636664FF>And if I could just jump in, sorry, Andrew, if I could just jump in with a couple of</font><font color=#636664FF>additional figures, which might go towards, I guess, the impetus as to why a road user</font><font color=#636664FF>charge and why now.</font><font color=#636664FF>And as Nicole kind of touched on, we're at a point where the revenue from road user or</font><font color=#636664FF>from excises is declining in real terms or staying roughly steady.</font><font color=#636664FF>And part of the reason is there is an ongoing shift towards</font><font color=#636664FF>EVs, but there is also a shift towards more fuel-efficient vehicles.</font><font color=#636664FF>Leave aside the fact that we have vehicles that actually pay no excise.</font><font color=#636664FF>You also have greater distances being travelled.</font><font color=#636664FF>You have more damage being done to roads, but you actually have less revenue being</font><font color=#636664FF>generated.</font><font color=#636664FF>So, the current excise model is being seen as effectively broken or at least not fit for</font><font color=#636664FF>purpose.</font><font color=#636664FF>Now that doesn't necessarily create the business case for a road user charge</font><font color=#636664FF>but it creates the need to consider an alternative to the current excise model because in</font><font color=#636664FF>relative terms, as a percentage of total revenue that can be used towards more and more</font><font color=#636664FF>expensive roads, it's not generating anywhere near enough to be able to cover the entire</font><font color=#636664FF>reason it exists, which is for road maintenance.</font><font color=#636664FF>So that's part of the reason why we're having this conversation is simply the excise model</font><font color=#636664FF>itself is not fit for purpose.</font><font color=#636664FF>Now, how does that figure in, Sam, when we have the Australian Automobile Association</font><font color=#636664FF>asserting that over the decade to 2023, only 57% of fuel excise was reinvested in land</font><font color=#636664FF>transport projects.</font><font color=#636664FF>They're essentially saying we're paying the excise and it's not actually going back</font><font color=#636664FF>into roads.</font><font color=#636664FF>Is that correct in your experience?</font><font color=#636664FF>It's probably a fair comment, but it's a portion of the whole truth.</font><font color=#636664FF>So, the money that's raised, despite the fact that the way the government's presented is</font><font color=#636664FF>this is money that is raised to then go into road projects, legally that's not how it</font><font color=#636664FF>works.</font><font color=#636664FF>Legally, the money is collected and it goes straight into consolidated revenue, which sits</font><font color=#636664FF>at the federal government level, which is then allocated towards road projects.</font><font color=#636664FF>So it's not dollar for dollar that that money has to go towards road transport products.</font><font color=#636664FF>What we then have is, as Nicole touched on, is we actually have a range of different</font><font color=#636664FF>sources of revenue that go towards constructing and then maintaining roads.</font><font color=#636664FF>But we also have different levels of governments who are responsible for different types</font><font color=#636664FF>of roads.</font><font color=#636664FF>So, the way you slice and dice these numbers... it’s quite a difficult</font><font color=#636664FF>exercise to say. If you're traveling, say for instance, on the Pacific Highway,</font><font color=#636664FF>how much of that is maintained by the federal government? You then take an off-road, how</font><font color=#636664FF>much of that is the state government? You then take a side road, how much of that is local</font><font color=#636664FF>government.</font><font color=#636664FF>So coming up with the numbers to maintain the entire road network and who's responsible</font><font color=#636664FF>for it is tricky.</font><font color=#636664FF>Yeah, so as a road user and somebody who's not an expert in this area, I would have</font><font color=#636664FF>thought that the fuel excise all just goes to maintain the roads.</font><font color=#636664FF>does it more correctly go towards building new roads or is it for maintenance of old</font><font color=#636664FF>existing roads?</font><font color=#636664FF>Well, in theory, it's supposed to go towards maintaining the existing road network.</font><font color=#636664FF>But the way the money goes is it just goes into a big pot for government.</font><font color=#636664FF>And so it can be spent, that money that is raised from excise can be spent building a</font><font color=#636664FF>hospital.</font><font color=#636664FF>It can be spent on any of the government priorities.</font><font color=#636664FF>It's not allocated constitutionally towards road projects.</font><font color=#636664FF>That's just, I guess, a notional way of thinking about why we're raising the tax.</font><font color=#636664FF>That's the reason the tax exists</font><font color=#636664FF>but it's not the reason why that money that is raised is actually spent.</font><font color=#636664FF>That may not be like for like.</font><font color=#636664FF>And Nicole, you did mention an equity issue.</font><font color=#636664FF>So we are potentially faced with a situation where one group of road users is paying a lot</font><font color=#636664FF>more tax than the other.</font><font color=#636664FF>Regardless of what it's used for, we are taxing road users differentially at the moment.</font><font color=#636664FF>So that equity one is a good point.</font><font color=#636664FF>But how does this go towards impacting on our climate targets?</font><font color=#636664FF>Definitely.</font><font color=#636664FF>As we consider this road user charge for electric vehicles, it must definitely</font><font color=#636664FF>align with our climate targets.</font><font color=#636664FF>Most recently the Australian government announced on 18 September that we have a new 2035</font><font color=#636664FF>emissions reduction target,</font><font color=#636664FF>which marks a major step towards achieving that net zero by 2050 and we also have a net</font><font color=#636664FF>zero plan which outlines how that target will be met.</font><font color=#636664FF>So considering that we have to get to, I guess achieve our 2035 emissions, which it seems</font><font color=#636664FF>far away now, but it really isn't.</font><font color=#636664FF>We must carefully design this road user charge to avoid penalising,</font><font color=#636664FF>as I mentioned, those who drive less or those who live in rural areas and we should also</font><font color=#636664FF>incentivise EV low-emission vehicles.</font><font color=#636664FF>So, the best way is when considering this charge, it should be a universal distant based</font><font color=#636664FF>charge that perhaps incorporates vehicle mass and emissions as well and it should really</font><font color=#636664FF>reward</font><font color=#636664FF>low-emission choices, ensure fairness across income groups, and this will also help</font><font color=#636664FF>consider our broader sustainability objectives and will really help support our transition</font><font color=#636664FF>to net zero.</font><font color=#636664FF>Yeah, so picking up on a point you made there, do we think that this will be a universal</font><font color=#636664FF>charge or will it only apply</font><font color=#636664FF>is this just the first part of a road user charge that will then extend...</font><font color=#636664FF>For example, we note that New Zealand has a charge on heavy vehicles.</font><font color=#636664FF>What's your view on that?</font><font color=#636664FF>My personal opinion is that I believe it should be a universal charge because this will</font><font color=#636664FF>ensure that fairness across all households, so low-income and high-income</font><font color=#636664FF>households and this could be made to be seen as the RUC as a fairer system.</font><font color=#636664FF>Yeah, because there is an element of fairness in the excise on fuel in that the more you</font><font color=#636664FF>drive and use the roads, the more tax you pay.</font><font color=#636664FF>So, it's a bit of a use of pay.</font><font color=#636664FF>Do you think this could be the more you charge?</font><font color=#636664FF>Is there any thoughts on that, tax the electricity supply, pay excise on electricity going</font><font color=#636664FF>into the vehicles?</font><font color=#636664FF>I might just jump in with an observation just around the difference between excise and</font><font color=#636664FF>road user charge, which goes towards the point of fairness and equity.</font><font color=#636664FF>One of the issues with the current excise model and the way it's applied is at the moment,</font><font color=#636664FF>it's applied to combustion engine vehicles, so petrol and diesel, not applied to EVs.</font><font color=#636664FF>Now, when you do the modeling,</font><font color=#636664FF>traditionally, people who are on a higher socioeconomic income, they can afford the EVs.</font><font color=#636664FF>They get FBT exemptions, they get concessions in terms of rebates, they have higher</font><font color=#636664FF>incomes, they can afford the EVs.</font><font color=#636664FF>So when you actually look at the distribution of who pays the excise, it's actually more</font><font color=#636664FF>at the lower end rather than the higher end.</font><font color=#636664FF>So leave aside the actual mechanics of</font><font color=#636664FF>how a road user charge would be applied.</font><font color=#636664FF>There's already an equity point here that people who can, I'll say less afford to pay tax</font><font color=#636664FF>are in fact bearing a higher burden of the tax.</font><font color=#636664FF>So that's part of the reason for why something for EVs.</font><font color=#636664FF>Now, I guess I take the point around emissions, but when we then come to look at, well,</font><font color=#636664FF>the distance-based... At the moment, there is a, I guess a</font><font color=#636664FF>proxy between how much fuel you buy and how much you might travel.</font><font color=#636664FF>But it's not like for like.</font><font color=#636664FF>You could poorly maintain a vehicle, you will buy a lot more fuel and travel less</font><font color=#636664FF>distance.</font><font color=#636664FF>A more traditional or a more refined road user charge would generally link per kilometres</font><font color=#636664FF>travelled to the charge itself.</font><font color=#636664FF>So it may as a very simple example, a road user charge could simply be on 1 January,</font><font color=#636664FF>you take a photo of your odometer, send that off to whichever revenue authority is going</font><font color=#636664FF>to look after this.</font><font color=#636664FF>31 December same year, you'll send them another odometer reading.</font><font color=#636664FF>The differential between the two, you pay a rate per kilometre, which has a much stronger</font><font color=#636664FF>link between the actual distance charged compared to the current model, which typically</font><font color=#636664FF>rewards those cars that are more efficient, to the point of being not taxed at all.</font><font color=#636664FF>So there is...</font><font color=#636664FF>a closer linkage between the damage that a car may end up doing to a road and actually</font><font color=#636664FF>paying some of that and the other point to note is that as a, again, as a very rough idea,</font><font color=#636664FF>your standard EV is generally heavier than your standard petrol or diesel engine car and</font><font color=#636664FF>if you look at how much damage relative they are doing, it's generally going to be on the</font><font color=#636664FF>EV side.</font><font color=#636664FF>So at the moment, as I said, there's a case for change</font><font color=#636664FF>and then there's a discussion to be had as to what does that change look like?</font><font color=#636664FF>Okay, so a change away from excise tax to road user charge as a total solution.</font><font color=#636664FF>Not a total solution because there's still equity issues to play out here, which have been</font><font color=#636664FF>highlighted by various, I guess, stakeholders.</font><font color=#636664FF>So one issue may well be there are different segments of the community that may for</font><font color=#636664FF>whatever reason have to travel further.</font><font color=#636664FF>So if you're in a rural community, you may have to travel a further distance than someone</font><font color=#636664FF>who's sitting in the city.</font><font color=#636664FF>Does that mean that there are differential rates depending on which postcode you may start</font><font color=#636664FF>in or whether there should be super rates if you're traveling in a CBD during peak hours?</font><font color=#636664FF>Whatever that might look like, I think there are still questions of equity that exist even</font><font color=#636664FF>if you had a flat rate per kilometer because it doesn't impact everyone equally.</font><font color=#636664FF>There's some really good points there, Sam, and it's certainly got me thinking beyond the</font><font color=#636664FF>simple application of a flat charge or a fairly easy charge.</font><font color=#636664FF>yeah, arguably that would be yet another piece of lodgement into a government that is</font><font color=#636664FF>struggling to deal with the amount of bureaucracy at the moment.</font><font color=#636664FF>So there's some difficulties in administration.</font><font color=#636664FF>Nicole, do we have any evidence that these kind of charges make a difference in the</font><font color=#636664FF>adoption of electric vehicles?</font><font color=#636664FF>Yeah, definitely.</font><font color=#636664FF>think considering all of Sam's points of what we just discussed, there is a risk as well</font><font color=#636664FF>that if the charge is perhaps seen as too high or implemented without considering those</font><font color=#636664FF>broader benefits, this will definitely hinder our transition to net zero and also, I</font><font color=#636664FF>guess, our transition to low carbon mobility </font><font color=#636664FF>and adoption of EV vehicles.</font><font color=#636664FF>In order to meet our new climate targets, EV adoption is actually a central</font><font color=#636664FF>pillar of achieving them.</font><font color=#636664FF>So again, we need to make sure that this rewards, ensures fairness</font><font color=#636664FF>amongst all and rewards everyone and really does support Australia's overall goals.</font><font color=#636664FF>Yeah, so if we take that on board and then consider, you know, trying to achieve those</font><font color=#636664FF>goals, but also recognising a user pays approach to roads and the cost of maintaining</font><font color=#636664FF>them.</font><font color=#636664FF>Are there any other ways that we could encourage EV adoption in the face of a charge?</font><font color=#636664FF>yeah, so one option was how the revenue from this user, this road </font><font color=#636664FF>user charge will be used.</font><font color=#636664FF>Without any clear communication of how this will be used, the public could see</font><font color=#636664FF>this as just another revenue raising measure rather than something to support</font><font color=#636664FF>climate action. And then again, this could erode that trust and willingness for people to</font><font color=#636664FF>actually purchase an EV.</font><font color=#636664FF>So in terms of actually using the funds from that road user charge revenue, some ideas are</font><font color=#636664FF>maybe we could use it to invest in sustainability initiatives.</font><font color=#636664FF>So examples could be funding more EV charging networks or ensuring</font><font color=#636664FF>put more money into public transport and those road safety upgrades that</font><font color=#636664FF>we talked about as well.</font><font color=#636664FF>So within sustainability, if we see that circularity and that positive feedback loop, this</font><font color=#636664FF>will really help maintain and support momentum from the public.</font><font color=#636664FF>So finding other ways to make EVs attractive to use.</font><font color=#636664FF>Do we think that is it more of an impact from EVs or maybe if it was more expensive to</font><font color=#636664FF>travel, was a user based charge or kilometre based charge as Sam was talking about.</font><font color=#636664FF>Would less driving have more impact</font><font color=#636664FF>on our climate change goals, so less driving in general because people are more conscious</font><font color=#636664FF>if there's a cost to the kilometres they drive.</font><font color=#636664FF>Would that have more of an impact on our climate goals than EVs themselves?</font><font color=#636664FF>Yeah, definitely.</font><font color=#636664FF>So if people are driving less and perhaps considering alternative transport modes like,</font><font color=#636664FF>yeah, public transport, cycling, even carpooling, this would definitely encourage users to</font><font color=#636664FF>have that sustainability focus in mind.</font><font color=#636664FF>And this would definitely help with achieving our goals.</font><font color=#636664FF>Yeah, so thank you.</font><font color=#636664FF>If we now move away from individuals and consider, because we also have corporates that</font><font color=#636664FF>own vehicles as well.</font><font color=#636664FF>Sam, do you think this tax would affect companies moving into fleet electrification?</font><font color=#636664FF>Yes, but you've got to look at the whole picture here.</font><font color=#636664FF>So, the point I think you were raising before is almost a distinction or a trade-off</font><font color=#636664FF>between, do I still buy a petrol car?</font><font color=#636664FF>Do I move to an EV?</font><font color=#636664FF>Even under states already, so NSW, WA and Victoria have previously tried to</font><font color=#636664FF>implement a road user charge.</font><font color=#636664FF>And I'll come back to Victoria's in a second.</font><font color=#636664FF>Even under the most</font><font color=#636664FF>I'd say generous model, the most that the average user was going to pay roughly equivalent</font><font color=#636664FF>was about $400 a year.</font><font color=#636664FF>Under the current model, a typical person will pay roughly about $1,200 in excise.</font><font color=#636664FF>So like for like, if you were jumping in an EV relative to jumping in a standard petrol</font><font color=#636664FF>car, under the road user charge, at the rates that were being set, you would be paying</font><font color=#636664FF>less.</font><font color=#636664FF>Now that sends a signal to the market that EVs are a better choice relative to traveling</font><font color=#636664FF>in a petrol car.</font><font color=#636664FF>Also bear in mind that outside of just the road use to charge versus excise debate, there</font><font color=#636664FF>are a range of other incentives that were available both at the federal level and at the</font><font color=#636664FF>state level for incentivising people to move away from petrol cars or at least inefficient</font><font color=#636664FF>petrol cars and moving towards full EVs.</font><font color=#636664FF>Now, you'd have the FBT, you've had direct cash rebates, you've</font><font color=#636664FF>had discounts on charging stations.</font><font color=#636664FF>So, there's a range of other incentives.</font><font color=#636664FF>There is, on one hand, there is a mixed message here to say, hang on, we're gonna start</font><font color=#636664FF>taxing EVs, okay.</font><font color=#636664FF>But the bigger picture is those incentives available to EVs</font><font color=#636664FF>that are not available to other cars.</font><font color=#636664FF>The other point is that you forward model what the EV uptake over the next 15 to 20 years</font><font color=#636664FF>looks like.</font><font color=#636664FF>There is a critical point at which is going to be very difficult to implement a road user</font><font color=#636664FF>charge once you've got 50% to 60% of the market in EVs, relative to bringing it in now where</font><font color=#636664FF>roughly about 7% to 10% of the market is EVs.</font><font color=#636664FF>So, if you're going to do it, do it early.</font><font color=#636664FF>That's where the government's trying to get to.</font><font color=#636664FF>And again, they can kind of figure a lot of the detail out as they go along and tweak it</font><font color=#636664FF>to the extent that there are any discrepancies and exemptions or</font><font color=#636664FF>carve outs that need to be made.</font><font color=#636664FF>But what they wanted to do is to get ahead of trying to bring something in when the whole</font><font color=#636664FF>excise model falls down and you've got too many EVs on the road to start taxing them. </font><font color=#636664FF>And they all vote, right?</font><font color=#636664FF>You know, there's a trade-off in terms of timing.</font><font color=#636664FF>The other thing I wanted to bring in is the constitution.</font><font color=#636664FF>So this is not a castle type argument.</font><font color=#636664FF>The constitution becomes relevant because the different states originally imposed or</font><font color=#636664FF>sought to impose, excise.</font><font color=#636664FF>And an affected driver in Victoria took the case through to the High Court and had a win,</font><font color=#636664FF>which effectively said states cannot impose a road user charge of this nature because it's</font><font color=#636664FF>an excise.</font><font color=#636664FF>And excises, under the Constitution, can only be levied by the federal government.</font><font color=#636664FF>So, as much as the federal government kind of sat back and happily let everyone else impose</font><font color=#636664FF>it, they're now the ones stuck with it going, well, we're the only ones that can now</font><font color=#636664FF>impose a road user charge because the states can't because they're</font><font color=#636664FF>constitutionally barred from doing so.</font><font color=#636664FF>So that's, as a collective, that's kind of created the case for change.</font><font color=#636664FF>Okay, so really a bit of sticker shock there, just thinking a new charge will come in, but</font><font color=#636664FF>there is potentially still a relative cost advantage running an EV of what, about $800 a</font><font color=#636664FF>year when it comes to tax.</font><font color=#636664FF>I do like, with a little bit of a cynical grin, the view that bring it in now while it</font><font color=#636664FF>won't cost as many votes,</font><font color=#636664FF>arguably a sensible strategy from the government.</font><font color=#636664FF>Purely my interpretation not RSM's.</font><font color=#636664FF>Yeah, I tend to agree with it, Sam.</font><font color=#636664FF>I think it's a good observation.</font><font color=#636664FF>So Nicole, looking at companies still and companies have to consider their decisions</font><font color=#636664FF>around emissions reporting, will this influence those decisions?</font><font color=#636664FF>Yes, certainly.</font><font color=#636664FF>So I guess if we do the introduction of this road user charge for EVs, it will most likely</font><font color=#636664FF>influence how companies do report.</font><font color=#636664FF>If there are any increased costs, this may make companies closely monitor and</font><font color=#636664FF>actually consider the way that they use their fleet.</font><font color=#636664FF>And obviously, if the emissions number is getting higher, then companies might</font><font color=#636664FF>actually look to reduce their emissions through other means.</font><font color=#636664FF>So they might look to purchase offsets.</font><font color=#636664FF>They could look at, obviously, other incentives within the business, lighting, how they</font><font color=#636664FF>recycle waste, those sort of initiatives.</font><font color=#636664FF>And they might</font><font color=#636664FF>in terms of actually using fleet and vehicles, companies could actually explore</font><font color=#636664FF>optimising delivery routes, perhaps looking at, doing everything</font><font color=#636664FF>all in one go or also partnering with other low-emission transport providers.</font><font color=#636664FF>But essentially in terms of emissions reporting, we need to make sure that</font><font color=#636664FF>companies need to ensure that transparency is key and it is really essential for</font><font color=#636664FF>maintaining credibility within emissions disclosures.</font><font color=#636664FF>Yeah, so really interesting points there on how it can change things.</font><font color=#636664FF>Do you think it will encourage innovation in EV design or even alternate fuels, Nicole?</font><font color=#636664FF>Yes, certainly.</font><font color=#636664FF>I guess as Sam mentioned before, EV vehicles are actually more heavy.</font><font color=#636664FF>So, there might be innovation considered in making them lighter or looking at any</font><font color=#636664FF>other materials that could be used.</font><font color=#636664FF>There might also be other research and investment into alternative fuels.</font><font color=#636664FF>and perhaps other technologies that could also help further reduce emissions and operating</font><font color=#636664FF>costs.</font><font color=#636664FF>Yeah, thank you.</font><font color=#636664FF>Sam, you have raised a few points and issues around it.</font><font color=#636664FF>If we go to your tax background can I ask you, do you think there's any, what are the</font><font color=#636664FF>difficulties in introducing this type of legislation?</font><font color=#636664FF>So, I'll leave the political discussion about how difficult it is to impose and create new</font><font color=#636664FF>taxes to one side.</font><font color=#636664FF>If we're just looking at the design of a road user charge, probably the fundamental point</font><font color=#636664FF>is around recording of the base of the tax.</font><font color=#636664FF>Now, if we use the base of the tax as the number of kilometres travelled, that's all well</font><font color=#636664FF>and good, but there's got to be a mechanism by which that is tracked.</font><font color=#636664FF>Now,</font><font color=#636664FF>As I said, one mechanism might simply be take a photo at the start, the end.</font><font color=#636664FF>Now, the cynic in me suggests that you could well take photos at different points in time</font><font color=#636664FF>and say, well, that's my current odometer.</font><font color=#636664FF>What it could lead to, and this is, I guess, a follow on suggestion.</font><font color=#636664FF>This goes back to, roads user charging and it is not a new idea.</font><font color=#636664FF>This has been around for a long time.</font><font color=#636664FF>It's been mentioned in the Henry review.</font><font color=#636664FF>It was an idea that was championed back in 2010 and kind of died a slow death.</font><font color=#636664FF>We're now talking about it again is we are now moving towards vehicles that are tracked.</font><font color=#636664FF>So without needing you necessarily to have any kind of friction point of actually doing</font><font color=#636664FF>anything, the government may well may well have access to your data and it will know that</font><font color=#636664FF>you've travelled a thousand kilometres this month</font><font color=#636664FF>and it could then use that information to then just send you a cheque or alternatively,</font><font color=#636664FF>just deduct it from your account, whatever that might look like, not overly dissimilar to</font><font color=#636664FF>a total account.</font><font color=#636664FF>So there are a number of challenges in terms of calculating and capturing that</font><font color=#636664FF>information, but potentially we're moving to a model that suggests maybe it doesn't</font><font color=#636664FF>require you to do anything and maybe it doesn't require the government to do anything</font><font color=#636664FF>through the use of data, whether you want to call it AI.</font><font color=#636664FF>Whatever it might look like, we could end up with a fairly frictionless model.</font><font color=#636664FF>But there are a number of non-tax related issues that come with that, leave aside the</font><font color=#636664FF>political privacy, for instance.</font><font color=#636664FF>Would you really want the government to have that access to knowing how far you're</font><font color=#636664FF>travelling, potentially where you're traveling, at what times you're traveling, if we</font><font color=#636664FF>decide to have different rates for different times to kind of manage traffic.</font><font color=#636664FF>So there's a range of non-tax issues with bringing some of those issues in.</font><font color=#636664FF>But the flip side is, is it fairer potentially relative to excise, which has its</font><font color=#636664FF>challenges?</font><font color=#636664FF>It is, but, you know, they're all issues for government to resolve.</font><font color=#636664FF>Yeah, so we did note in the research for this that Iceland already has a charge as the</font><font color=#636664FF>only other jurisdiction with an EV charge.</font><font color=#636664FF>I think it's just an EV charge.</font><font color=#636664FF>They're talking about transitioning to in-vehicle units, which would be an interesting</font><font color=#636664FF>political proposition here in Australia to allow the government to track your vehicle.</font><font color=#636664FF>The other thoughts there are also around using like state averages, district averages, et</font><font color=#636664FF>cetera and that would go a long way to what you were talking about before, Sam, which is around</font><font color=#636664FF>regional or country users versus city users.</font><font color=#636664FF>do we think, asking both of you this, do we think there's a better alternative to increase</font><font color=#636664FF>the equity in who's paying for the roads?</font><font color=#636664FF>Leave aside all the challenges, I do think of road use at charge in its purest form,</font><font color=#636664FF>provides the best opportunity for a fairer and more equitable system, overcoming all of</font><font color=#636664FF>those challenges I've noted before in terms of the regressive nature of excise.</font><font color=#636664FF>Mentioning before around, you know, the respective damage that certain vehicles do.</font><font color=#636664FF>You can have different rates for different types of vehicles and making it</font><font color=#636664FF>relatively simple to administer if, for instance, we go down the path of government or</font><font color=#636664FF>another third party having access to specific data to be able to impose a tax.</font><font color=#636664FF>So in a pure sense, I think a road user charge makes sense, but there are obviously</font><font color=#636664FF>challenges with rolling it out, implementing it, and making sure it works for all segments</font><font color=#636664FF>of the market.</font><font color=#636664FF>I think, yeah, agree with that and I guess from the sustainability perspective, agree,</font><font color=#636664FF>there's definitely both those risks and opportunities.</font><font color=#636664FF>As we mentioned before, if it's structured poorly, could discourage EV adoption,</font><font color=#636664FF>impact those lower income households, and perhaps even, slow down organizations</font><font color=#636664FF>or corporations changing to a fleet of EV vehicles.</font><font color=#636664FF>But if it is carefully designed with all those factors that we talked about and if they are</font><font color=#636664FF>considered, then it can definitely support those behavioral shifts and it can help drive</font><font color=#636664FF>innovation and also help us achieve our climate goals.</font><font color=#636664FF>So yeah, I don't know if there's an alternative, a better alternative.</font><font color=#636664FF>Yeah, like many taxation issues and equity issues, it's really complex.</font><font color=#636664FF>And what can appear to be quite a simple measure or a simple argument </font><font color=#636664FF>a lot of layers to it.</font><font color=#636664FF>We're getting some online feedback about this and the sentiment's mixed.</font><font color=#636664FF>And I would suggest it's probably more negative if you own an EV and more positive if</font><font color=#636664FF>you're watching EV owners</font><font color=#636664FF>not paying excise tax and that's anecdotal comments that we've received and also its</font><font color=#636664FF>arguments about whether it's fair, how to measure it, whether we should scrap it entirely</font><font color=#636664FF>and just raise revenue elsewhere and there's certainly a lot of feedback about how it be</font><font color=#636664FF>administered and the pain of doing that tied in with concerns about the environmental</font><font color=#636664FF>commitment.</font><font color=#636664FF>Both of you have outlined a lot on those today.</font><font color=#636664FF>Really, overall, it's a really complex issue and we are getting quite a simple solution.</font><font color=#636664FF>And generally, our view is that if it's done well, it can provide equity and fairness in</font><font color=#636664FF>taxation because roads need to be paid for somehow.</font><font color=#636664FF>So thank you very much for joining us today for the talkBIG</font><font color=#636664FF>episode.</font><font color=#636664FF>I've been your host Andrew Sykes.</font><font color=#636664FF>I'd encourage all of our listeners to subscribe to our podcast wherever you'd get your</font><font color=#636664FF>favorite, whatever your favorite platform is.</font><font color=#636664FF>Nicole and Sam, any last thoughts to add before we sign off for this episode?</font><font color=#636664FF>The only last thought I have is it'll be interesting to see how quickly the government</font><font color=#636664FF>moves on this.</font><font color=#636664FF>None of this is new.</font><font color=#636664FF>None of this is, something that the governments didn't know about before.</font><font color=#636664FF>So, the fact that we're still talking about implementing something 15 years after it was</font><font color=#636664FF>last suggested suggests that there's still a little bit to go.</font><font color=#636664FF>Yeah, terrific.</font><font color=#636664FF>Yeah and I guess just from my point of view, the success of this will depend on</font><font color=#636664FF>how well it integrates with our broader climate commitments.</font><font color=#636664FF>And from my perspective, I think if it integrates, it will be supported.</font><font color=#636664FF>Terrific.</font><font color=#636664FF>Thank you, Sam.</font><font color=#636664FF>Thank you, Nicole and I invite our listeners to tune into our next episode of talkBIG.</font><font color=#636664FF>Thank you for joining us on talkBIG.</font><font color=#636664FF>If you found this episode helpful, please subscribe and leave a review.</font><font color=#636664FF>Thank you.</font>